Sarah Fejfar (00:14.912)
Sally, welcome to Greenroom Central Studios. Say hello to Linchpin Nation.
Sally Z (00:23.062)
Hello, Lenspin Nation. How are you? Yay!
Sarah Fejfar (00:26.075)
So happy to have you back. You get to be a two-time guest on the show. This is exciting.
Sally Z (00:33.706)
You know what, I feel special about that, I'm not gonna lie. To be able to come back means it went okay the first time. That makes me happy. Ha ha ha.
Sarah Fejfar (00:39.315)
Yes?
Sarah Fejfar (00:44.135)
And perhaps it's because I have a soft spot in my heart for Minnesotans. Yes.
Sally Z (00:49.554)
Oh, you know what? Once you're one of us, you're always one of us. I see you, Sarah.
Sarah Fejfar (00:54.884)
Yeah, I think 20 years in Minnesota makes me a Minnesotan for life.
Sally Z (01:00.242)
It does. 28, that's a lot of winters.
Sarah Fejfar (01:02.807)
It is, it is. And we just had this like massive like cold spell like, you know, 14 degrees. And we lost powers 40 degrees in our house. Schools were closed for like 10 days. We lost all these trees. It was incredible. And my husband and I were just looking at each other because this is why we left. So we didn't have to like slip on the ice and all be cold.
Sally Z (01:12.958)
Oh no!
Sally Z (01:23.751)
I know and you know what?
Sally Z (01:28.526)
know. And Minnesota was, it was cold, but we were not dealing with merely, I mean we do not have any snow. I see my grass right now. It has been the weirdest like perennial November that I have ever experienced. It's like I don't know what's happening. So we were watching the rest of the country, you know, come to a stand still due to winter and we're like
Sarah Fejfar (01:39.383)
It's unreal.
Sarah Fejfar (01:53.599)
Yeah, war zone.
Sally Z (01:57.814)
Well at some point we're hoping it actually snows here in Minnesota. That's weird. It's so weird.
Sarah Fejfar (02:01.999)
Right? No, it's the best part. So Sally, I thought that we would start and have a little fun and ask you to share a story. So I don't know if you know this whole story, but a little over six years ago, now I stepped into my first four day personal development seminar and it changed my life. And within 11 months of being in that room, I had left the Midwest where I'd been my entire life I'd
moved my family to the Pacific Northwest. I left my corporate career of 16 years. I'd started a business. We exited all the debt that we'd been in for like over a decade and a half. It was like a massive, massive shift for someone who was self-described like risk averse to have all those things happen in less than a year is just kind of mind boggling, even still, knowing that it happened looking back. And this whole podcast,
Sally Z (02:53.207)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (02:58.027)
the premise of the podcast is really about the belief that being in the room is everything. And so what I would like to know from you to start us off today would be like to share a story of a room that you made it into that changed your life.
Sally Z (03:15.11)
Okay, I mean, I completely feel this in my bones fully. I've been on stage my whole life and I know that there is magic. It's metaphysical magic. It is real magic that happens in my belief. You know, and I'm a speaker and a speaker coach. Like when you are in the room and a speaker is saying something and it travels out into the audience
Sarah Fejfar (03:21.12)
Mmm
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (03:44.434)
and you experience it, you co-create something together with that other person. So I completely believe in what you're saying, that there is magic when we can be in the room together in ways that as much and as grateful as I am for virtual, it's just not the same. And from a very practical business perspective, aside from I hope that I had created many of those moments already.
Sarah Fejfar (03:48.959)
Yes.
Sarah Fejfar (04:02.655)
Yes, right.
Sally Z (04:14.15)
as a speaker and as a performer, I'd felt that before. But I remember sitting in the audience in this event that I took a big risk in going to. And I was really early on in my business, and it felt like a big deal to buy the plane ticket, to buy the event ticket, to convince two friends, like, I know that this is a big risk.
Sarah Fejfar (04:27.499)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (04:35.06)
Yes.
Sally Z (04:44.298)
I didn't really know how great it was gonna be or anything. I had read a blurb about it because somebody on my podcast had talked about this paragraph that was written and how moving this paragraph was. So it was a marketing blurb. And it turns out it was about this event. So I read this blurb and I'm like, I have got to be in that room. It was all about the power of stories and the power of...
Sarah Fejfar (05:07.401)
Mmm.
Sally Z (05:13.054)
really how we understand each other and the creative economy. And it was like, yes, I'm like, oh, I want to be in this room. And lo and behold, I somehow get there. I like scrape together the money to go and walk into this theater and sitting down. And I just remember sitting in that audience and seeing myself on that stage and believing with my whole being.
Sarah Fejfar (05:36.984)
Mmm.
Sally Z (05:42.594)
that I belonged on that stage. I'd been on other stages, but there was something about that community and that stage and that experience that I felt really pulled to. And so I took advantage of that by being in the room and being there. I was just like soaking up all of the insights and the magic and the joy and the la la. And I sought out all these people.
Sarah Fejfar (05:49.376)
Mmm.
Sally Z (06:12.67)
at the event and invited them to come be on my podcast. So I just did everything I could to connect and embed myself in that community. And within a few months, I was having coffee with the event producer who has some Minnesota connections. And he was like, would you like to come speak at the event next year? So I'm like, yes, I would. Now it took.
Sarah Fejfar (06:29.952)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (06:39.207)
Aww.
Sally Z (06:42.314)
Two years before I was like really on the big stage, I did a workshop that first year, but that's how it happens, you know, from a business perspective, I'm always telling the people I work with, like you've got to get yourself in the room. You've got to get yourself in the room for yourself, but also for the kinds of magic and connections that can happen when we get in the room. So I'm with you, big believer in the in-room magic.
Sarah Fejfar (06:51.649)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (06:59.171)
Mm.
Yes.
Sarah Fejfar (07:11.899)
Mm. I love that story. Yeah, there's magic in the room. That's for sure. So let's shift gears and let's talk about your new book that you have coming out because I think a lot of Lynchpin Nation would want to know about the gems that are in there because we're so full of passion for the transformation that can happen in the room and the power of a strong speaker to really kick off
Sally Z (07:18.079)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (07:38.807)
that transformation. So how about you start by telling us about the moment that you got the idea for the book.
Sally Z (07:50.73)
Well, I used to speak to young people. I worked for an organization where we were travel the country. I was basically on tour and I'd walk into a high school gymnasium and, you know, talk to 15 year olds, you know, freshmen in high school and say, you know, respect, respect is important and courage and live your life with kindness. And these big.
Sarah Fejfar (07:55.221)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (07:59.105)
Okay.
Sally Z (08:16.714)
universal, really important ideas. The goal was we were trying to change the way young people treated each other in schools. I felt super passionate about the message. And as somebody who had at that point already been trained as a speaker and had done some coaching, I felt really confident in what I was doing. I knew I was a good speaker. I knew that I could do this well. But if you've ever faced 150
ninth graders. It's kind of an intimidating group. And so, you know, I felt, oh man, I felt nerves. I've been on stages in front of thousands of people and it felt, I felt more nervous in a gymnasium with 150 teenagers than I did standing on stage in front of thousands. Until, and you know, part of the reason was because I was so focused on the power of my message.
Sarah Fejfar (08:49.995)
That's intense.
Sarah Fejfar (09:03.764)
I believe it.
Sarah Fejfar (09:16.087)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (09:16.914)
that I was losing them. And I just remember this visceral moment standing in front of these ninth graders where it became really obvious that as beautiful as my script was and as powerful as my one-liners were and as skilled of a speaker that I was, it didn't matter in that moment because they did not feel resonant with me. They didn't experience that.
Sarah Fejfar (09:43.362)
Mm.
Sally Z (09:45.202)
you get what I'm going through, partly because I was 28 years old and I'm a middle-class white lady. They didn't see themselves in me until I leaned more and more heavily into stories. And I could immediately, and it wasn't just using stories, but it was placing the stories in the right.
Sarah Fejfar (09:48.381)
Mmm.
Sarah Fejfar (09:57.577)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (10:06.103)
Hmm.
Sally Z (10:13.75)
place in my talks. And as soon as I put the stories in the right place and really got focused on captivating storytelling, storytelling that lights up their imagination, that helps transcend this gap between who they think I am, kind of a mother type, you know, like a mom talking to me about respect.
to somebody who really truly understands the world that they're living in and the challenges that they face. And story bridged that beautiful gap. And well, story bridge the gap in a beautiful way. It wasn't a beautiful gap, it was a challenging gap, but story fit in that gap so beautifully. And it was transformative for me as a speaker.
Sarah Fejfar (10:46.462)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (11:08.03)
And I know for so many of the young people that I got to talk to, because I watched as their heads would just lift up and they would lean in and they would talk to me afterwards and say, that story you told, what's happening with that person now? Or was that real? Did that really happen? Like that was the stuff that they wanted to dig into. And so.
Sarah Fejfar (11:27.095)
Mmm.
Sally Z (11:33.246)
experiencing that for myself from a speaking perspective, I got really curious, like, why? Why are stories so, so powerful? And so I went and got my master's degree in persuasion, essentially, and it was like, yeah, stories, stories are the tool. Stories are the tool that help us understand each other in different ways, see what's possible in new ways, that really connect people.
Sarah Fejfar (11:56.415)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (12:03.178)
and connect people to ideas, to each other and to ideas. And so I started as a coach, I started really focusing on storytelling and ultimately developed my own approaches and curriculum. And when it was like, time to write your first book, Sally, what is it that you wanna write about? I was like, stories, I wanna write about stories. And so that is book number one. Here it is. It's...
Sarah Fejfar (12:07.625)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (12:25.032)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (12:29.163)
That's so exciting. Show us, show me. That's a really beautiful cover. Is it sparkly? Aww.
Sally Z (12:32.394)
It's pretty, I'm not gonna lie, it's pretty. Look it, gold foil. Thank you! It is! I know, I know, it makes me so, I'm really happy. I had to get tucked into the gold foil, I was like, I don't know, I'm not really a gold foil type of person. But then, you know, I'm like, actually, I love it. It has, to me, this expresses the magic.
Sarah Fejfar (13:00.704)
Yeah.
Sally Z (13:01.022)
of it, of what happens when one person speaks a story, it really reverberates out into the audience in such powerful ways.
Sarah Fejfar (13:08.167)
Oh, I get it. Is it kind of like a picture of a theater with a person on stage? I got it.
Sally Z (13:13.213)
Yeah, it's the stage! Boop boop boop, telling the story!
Sarah Fejfar (13:18.211)
Go, okay, nice. I think the foil is eye catching and definitely worth adding, yes. Tell me, that, the first audience you were telling me about, the ninth graders, did you win them over on that one or did it take you a few more audiences before you figured it out?
Sally Z (13:22.927)
Ha ha!
Sally Z (13:30.126)
Thank you, I'm now convinced.
Sally Z (13:40.053)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (13:48.938)
Well, I mean, I had so many reps. I spoke to teenagers twice a day, four days a week for five years. So, yeah, I got, it's a very unique thing. I mean, most keynote speakers or professional speakers, they are repeating their message in powerful ways. Otherwise you couldn't do it. You couldn't actually make a living doing it.
Sarah Fejfar (14:00.394)
Oh wow.
Sarah Fejfar (14:12.543)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (14:18.274)
And there's all kinds of good reasons to repeat your message. But it was such a laboratory of getting really good at my craft. Because the audience was a little bit different every time. You know, a group of ninth graders is not the exact same every time. And the challenges of the particular group was slightly different. But I got to really hone in on.
Sarah Fejfar (14:34.249)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (14:41.911)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (14:47.15)
playing in the storytelling. How exactly can I tell this in a way that is intriguing or interesting or pulls them in? So every time I spoke, I got to iterate on it just a little bit. And that's an incredible gift as a speaker and a storyteller to have that many reps and that much opportunity to perfect what it is that you're doing day in and day out.
Sarah Fejfar (14:54.881)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (14:58.955)
Sure.
Sarah Fejfar (15:12.631)
But not only the reps were a gift, but I also think the tough audiences you were in front of is a gift because high schoolers are not, they're not an easy audience, I'm guessing. Yeah.
Sally Z (15:27.558)
No, it's, they're not initially, they're not an easy audience initially. But if you can prove yourself to be authentic and invested in actually who they are and what they have going on and not talk over them, but really try and connect with them and assume that they are engaged, interesting, bright people who have their own experiences.
Sarah Fejfar (15:37.079)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (15:58.066)
They actually, as soon as they recognize that you care, they are much easier to engage ultimately than let's say a group of adults who are, they're just an unwilling group of adults. Ultimately now, I think are harder to move off the sidelines and like get engaged.
adults come in a little more open.
Sarah Fejfar (16:29.535)
That's what I'm thinking. Like, as you described this, that most adults probably come in open and just, you know, like convince me otherwise, like I'm gonna, you know, assume positive intent, like, innocent until proven guilty. Whereas I bet the teenage audience is a little is like the reverse, like, you convince me that you're worth listening to, I'm going to come in, like, you're guilty. You'd have to prove me you're innocent and worthy of listening to. That's funny.
Sally Z (16:32.151)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (16:41.944)
Yes.
Sally Z (16:48.354)
Exactly.
Sally Z (16:55.957)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. That's pretty accurate. It's the teenage audiences are more changeable. Wherever they're at, I think they're more changeable. And adult audiences, it's if somebody comes in with arms crossed, like the mistake that a lot of speakers make is I want to convince that row of people in the back.
Sarah Fejfar (17:09.301)
Mm.
Sally Z (17:23.886)
who are leaned back, arms crossed, totally disengaged on their phone. We make up all these stories about what's really going on. They must hate this, they must hate me. I'm gonna get them, I'm gonna pull them in. And we forget about the 80% of the audience that is totally with you. And right there, just ignore, not to your detriment, but they don't get to rule your mind.
Sarah Fejfar (17:42.389)
Mmm.
Sarah Fejfar (17:47.813)
Yeah.
Sally Z (17:52.13)
the way you're thinking about what's happening or the energy of the room. And that's the trick of the adults that we speak to.
Sarah Fejfar (17:56.23)
Mmm.
Sarah Fejfar (18:02.943)
feeling so bad right now because my resting, I'm attentive and dialed into you pose is my legs are crossed and my arms are crossed. And I have like an expressionless face that's actually normal for me. I have scoliosis and my torso gets very uncomfortable if I'm just kind of like, loosely like splayed open, I do actually feel more comfortable like tight in.
Sally Z (18:16.735)
Yeah.
Sally Z (18:30.015)
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (18:32.107)
And so I do present probably the opposite that every speaker would like to have, even though I'm yours.
Sally Z (18:33.091)
Right.
Sally Z (18:40.526)
Well, what a great example. Yeah, I mean, what a great example to remind people that we are often telling ourselves a story of what our audience is thinking. And most of the time we're telling ourselves a negative story. Like, because I can't tell you how many times I've been like, oh, that person was not with me. And then afterwards, that is the person who comes up and says, oh my gosh, thank you.
Sarah Fejfar (18:56.481)
Yes.
Sally Z (19:07.798)
That was really interesting. I never thought of it that way. And I'm like, oh, great. I was not expecting that. Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (19:12.699)
Oh, you were listening and you did like it. I am reading this book right now by Frank Kern. It's his personal development book, and he talks about this that at length that there's a thing called accurate thinking and that our brains are most of the time playing shenanigans on us and going after the negative instead of the positive. And we're just not telling ourselves factual, true.
Sally Z (19:30.83)
Mm.
Sally Z (19:38.328)
guys.
Sarah Fejfar (19:41.704)
stories.
Sally Z (19:44.086)
million percent. You know, in my story work with speakers, truly part of the work is the stories we tell ourselves. Like how you become a person who tells stories is first investigating the stories you tell yourself. Because the majority of my job as a speaker and as a coach is holding up an accurate oftentimes
Sarah Fejfar (19:53.484)
Mmm.
Sally Z (20:12.918)
way more positive mirror reflecting back to people. Like getting the baloney stories out of your head, the trash thinking that is holding us back totally unnecessarily. And if we can manage that, that can unlock all kinds of not just opportunities, but also capabilities that are in you. They are in you.
Sarah Fejfar (20:25.577)
I love that.
Sarah Fejfar (20:36.659)
Yes.
Sally Z (20:39.702)
that you don't recognize or appreciate because of the stories we tell ourselves. And honestly, Sarah, and I know you know this, there's some really powerful narratives around what it means to be a speaker, who belongs on stage and who doesn't, how speakers really behave, what they're like, what you have to wear, the kind of like, what sort of...
Sarah Fejfar (21:06.515)
Oh my gosh, yes.
Sally Z (21:08.094)
credentials you need as you take that place on stage and it's all baloney. It really, really is. Oh my gosh, I spent so much of my time just knocking those stories down so that people can show up and share their voice, like speak their story.
Sarah Fejfar (21:16.371)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (21:37.694)
without believing like, well, my stories, it's not, who cares what I think? I don't have a powerful or dramatic story. I'm not a performer. I don't have a book. And that's real thinking. I don't mean to belittle that. They are powerful thoughts. They're just not accurate thinking.
Sarah Fejfar (21:46.506)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (21:59.891)
Yeah, yeah, I just I've been working with a therapist for a little over a year now. And it's been the best thing I've ever done for my business. And to do the inner work and
it pulling out, just trying to come up with identity of like, who am I and what have I allowed the world to layer on top of that, that I just need to kind of like take off and your story just then about you said something about what you wear. And I love it when there's people like Trent Shelton or Mel Robbins crushing it on stage because I...
Sally Z (22:25.313)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (22:42.723)
my worldview in corporate was that when you go on stage, you were high heels and you, or you wear your suit. And I could never see myself wanting to be on a stage looking like that. And so you can put this, then put this next story on that, well, then it must not be for me or I'm not meant for the stage. And that's not accurate speaking. That's not accurate thinking. I actually
Sally Z (23:06.719)
Oof.
Sarah Fejfar (23:11.139)
have intuition that I am meant to speak on big stages in the future and it won't be in a suit and high heels. And I love that there's when we can look now and see that there's a lot of versions of success on stage and they all look different and maybe you could see yourself in one of them, maybe you can't because you're going to invent a completely new look but yeah.
Sally Z (23:39.83)
Right, yeah. Or, you know, when you get an opportunity, you've been given this opportunity because people see something in you, and then you're like, oh my gosh, now I'm gonna step on the big stage, so now I need to put on the heels and the business suit, and you show up not feeling grounded in your authentic voice or who you really are, because you're like, I'm supposed to look this way. I'm supposed, now that I'm big time, I've gotta turn into this other thing.
Sarah Fejfar (23:48.236)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (23:52.83)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (24:00.139)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (24:08.896)
Yeah.
Sally Z (24:09.014)
And it's not that different contexts require different things. Like, you know, it'd be silly to ignore context completely. However, like if you can own your brand and own who you are, that's part of the reason why you're there. And so don't show up as somebody totally different than who you really are. Cause it's going to be really hard to speak well.
Sarah Fejfar (24:30.891)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (24:34.219)
Such good advice. I am wondering if you would feel comfortable sharing a few spoilers. I'd love to know what are a couple gems from your new book, speaking story that you can't wait for readers to uncover.
Sally Z (24:42.48)
Sure!
Sally Z (24:53.258)
Well, I will say, I really, the ending, should I spoiler? I'm gonna have to spoiler. Cause now that I said it, I'm gonna say it, but I know, I know. So, you know, a lot of the book is,
Sarah Fejfar (25:06.411)
You told me, you just said.
Sally Z (25:18.534)
about the internal thinking that we need in order to show up and do it. And there's some how in there. There's absolutely some how about how to structure a story that is actually brain friendly and persuasive and connects with your audience in meaningful ways. And I have lived this for a really long time. But the end of the book is a story actually from my own
Sarah Fejfar (25:22.229)
Mm.
Sally Z (25:48.162)
life that felt the most personal, the most vulnerable, the most tangible speaking of my story that I can think of in my life. And it was such a moving experience for me, even after having coached this and done this for 20 plus years, whatever. It's different.
A lot of my speaking has been about how to speak. And this was very personal. And so it was maybe a year, year and a half ago. And like this happened right before I turned in my manuscript. And so I was like, well, I'm going to have to include this in the book. So my oldest child is transgender. And that has been a whole journey.
Sarah Fejfar (26:25.151)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (26:34.639)
Mm.
Sally Z (26:47.218)
a whole journey in and of itself, of course. And I was invited to come speak to at an event called Listen to Your Mother and it's stories of motherhood. And I got Rowan's permission and said, Rowan, how would you feel if I shared a little bit of our story as like mother, child, family, really allowing you, I'm gonna get emotional as I talk about this.
Sarah Fejfar (26:49.119)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (27:14.702)
really celebrating you and getting to a place where we were sharing you more publicly and kind of the bravery of your journey. And Rowan was like, well, let me, let me read it first. Or he's like, mom, let me, I don't know. Let me read it first. So I wrote it. I shared it with Ro. Ro was like, okay, yep, I would be okay with you sharing this, which is huge because Rowan is a huge introvert. Like,
the opposite of me. We could not be more different in a zillion ways. Rowan is like, no one ever needs to look at me or listen to me ever. My life is fine. So this was brave in lots of different ways for them to do this. So I was nervous because this was a, this is, you know, it's a coming out story.
Sarah Fejfar (27:44.474)
hahahaha
Sarah Fejfar (27:59.65)
Mmm.
Sarah Fejfar (28:09.387)
Mm, mhm.
Sally Z (28:10.326)
but not, it's my coming out story as the mom of a transgender kid. And that's its own journey. So I was nervous and I was nervous. I didn't know how people would respond. I didn't know if my voice would shake or if I could get through without crying or what would happen. And I, it was
Sarah Fejfar (28:21.758)
Yeah.
Sally Z (28:39.962)
such a great challenge for me to really live out the message of the book, which is to show up and as truthfully and as authentically and as lovingly and as compassionately and empathetically with your audience as you can, show up and be present and not get lost in what it's supposed to
Sarah Fejfar (28:41.784)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (28:53.111)
Mmm.
Sally Z (29:10.73)
I have never experienced that at that level before. I don't even know if I describe it in the book, but honestly that moment to me, I felt held by that audience. It was just so, and certainly not everybody in that room agrees with me on this and that's fine. But I felt...
Sarah Fejfar (29:25.436)
Mmm.
Sally Z (29:40.578)
heard, I felt this really beautiful connection between this story and other people seeing themselves in that story, whether or not they have a child who's transgender. Because the universality of the story was really, we as parents, we don't get to choose who our kids become, what they want in their lives and who they are. And our job is to love, to love our children.
Sarah Fejfar (29:54.112)
Right.
Sarah Fejfar (29:59.399)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Sally Z (30:09.974)
And that is the thing that I heard from people afterwards was, oh, I get that. Yeah, my kid's, you know, went off and lives in Japan now. And I don't want him to do that, but that's where he, you know, it's like different, but the same, you know? It was powerful.
Sarah Fejfar (30:22.846)
Right.
Sarah Fejfar (30:26.528)
Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. So one of those teacher becomes a student moments.
Sally Z (30:36.406)
Yeah, yeah, and I had to I had to do all my tricks. I had to be like, whoo, okay. How do I stay grounded in this and not let my fears keep me from this important moment? Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (30:45.091)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (30:53.643)
Right. Oh, wow. That's beautiful. I appreciate you sharing and I'm glad you included that in the book. I'm guessing it makes you and such a better coach having gone through that moment. I bet you feel that.
Sally Z (30:59.431)
Oh. Yeah.
Sally Z (31:11.022)
Yeah, well, it's kind of like, you know, when I did my TEDx talk, I felt like, oh man, this thing is putting me through the wringer. And, you know, at that point I'm like, I'm a very experienced speaker. This thing is freaking me out. Like this TEDx talk is really intense and high stakes and all the fear. And at the end of it, I was like, I am so glad that I did it. Not for me, but as a speaker.
Sarah Fejfar (31:19.456)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (31:32.981)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (31:36.524)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Sally Z (31:40.118)
But for me as a coach, because I remembered I was put right back into that seat of, this is vulnerable. This feels all consuming. How do I move through this? Well, yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (31:48.405)
Right.
Yes.
Sarah Fejfar (31:55.934)
Mmmm
Sarah Fejfar (32:01.079)
Oh, I love that. I was checking out your Instagram and I saw a video that caught my eye. And it was you doing a cold plunge. And obviously the health benefits are amazing. I have been cold plunging for about five months now and I feel so much Zen and
Sally Z (32:07.998)
Uh oh. Okay.
Sally Z (32:14.494)
Aha! Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (32:27.091)
so much less inflamed and so much more healthy and just overall definitely feeling like a sense of how empowered and my and like expanded my belief of what's possible is because it's like kind of like a combination of like the level of doing hard things and that I can
Sally Z (32:30.813)
Yeah.
Sally Z (32:43.261)
Mm-mm. Mm, mm-mm.
Sarah Fejfar (32:53.923)
proud of myself for doing what I said I would do, you know? And it feels amazing, and it definitely feels like something I wanna keep doing. And I wanna hear your take on doing it because everyone kind of comes at it and feels differently going in and coming out and what's it taught you?
Sally Z (32:57.686)
Yeah, totally.
Sally Z (33:16.14)
Yeah.
Sally Z (33:19.962)
Uh, well, I started doing this cold plunging thing mostly as a, like my knees are creaky and, oh, maybe this will help my metabolism and I, you know, getting older and all the, the health benefits, inflammation and yada yada. And what became really clear quickly was the
Sarah Fejfar (33:32.854)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (33:40.608)
Yup.
Sally Z (33:46.974)
immediate tangible benefit was exactly what you were just saying, which is much more around the mental belief system that I was forging as I was getting in that tub, which was, I don't want to do this. I mean, I want to do it, but I don't want to do it. I want to, but I want to, but and I, I think I can only get in there for 30 seconds. Like
Sarah Fejfar (33:50.925)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (34:06.067)
Right? Yeah.
Sally Z (34:15.154)
Oh my gosh, if I get through 30 seconds, that'll be a miracle, you know? And to get in there and to manage that, my...
Sarah Fejfar (34:15.229)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (34:26.378)
my mind, to manage my mind in that moment and get through 30 seconds and then get to a minute and then get to two minutes and three minutes. You go, oh my gosh, it's not just a sign I can do hard things. It's not just like a mantra that I tell myself, but I actually can do hard things. And it has become a metaphor for me in all parts of my business.
the process of doing the I want to but things in your business. Like I, I'm, because I can't tell you how often I hear that from people. I want to get on stage, but do I have what it takes and what will people think of me? And you know, what if I, what if I fail? What if I look stupid? What if
Sarah Fejfar (35:01.744)
Mm.
Sally Z (35:21.17)
all of the, what I call them, the delays, these delays that keep us from just simply doing the thing. And you only transform after you're in the tub. So you gotta get in the tub if you want to experience the benefits of it. And sometimes it's, you know, not the most fun thing.
Sarah Fejfar (35:28.619)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (35:43.904)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (35:51.283)
And it's still cold, like every time. It's called after, but also like every time it's still cold and it's still hard. Yeah.
Sally Z (35:51.542)
But it feels so good. After.
Yeah!
Sally Z (36:00.618)
Yeah. Every time you get in, it's like, like you, you are re you have to redo it. It's not like you don't ever have to control your breathing or your thinking every time. So what kind of tub can I ask? What kind of tub do you have? Like what's your
Sarah Fejfar (36:06.04)
Mm-hmm.
Like, oh, still cold. Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (36:19.159)
Well, we joined a gym that has one and there's a sauna too. So I go back and forth between the two. Yes, it's a pretty, it's almost like a hot tub, but it's cold. So it can fit multiple people.
Sally Z (36:24.002)
Okay.
Nice.
That helps.
Sally Z (36:34.75)
Okay. Oh, cool, cool. Oh, okay, that's kind of wild. Yeah, I did a girls trip two years ago, maybe. And this was right after I had started cold plunging. And we were in Colorado, along the Colorado River. And at this resort we were at, they were doing cold plunging in the river. And it was...
Sarah Fejfar (36:39.579)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (36:58.815)
Nice.
Sally Z (37:02.234)
not just cold, but it's like rushing water coming over you. Because if you've cold plunged before, once you get in and then you don't move, it's fine until you move. And then every time you move, it's like you're re-cold again. A little bit soon. Yes.
Sarah Fejfar (37:04.704)
Yes.
Sarah Fejfar (37:17.555)
It's the thermal barrier. Yeah. You like form this little like, pillow of warmth around you. Yeah. Which you need to constantly stir. Otherwise, you get comfortable.
Sally Z (37:25.183)
Yes, well there's an
I know, right. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the way to like keep challenging yourself for sure. Well, there's no thermal barrier in the Colorado River because the water is just coming at you. So, um, I learned so much because they had a guide there who was talking us through. And the thing that I learned that I was most bummed about, but that has been most transformative. And then I think there's a metaphor here is that
Sarah Fejfar (37:34.253)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Sally Z (37:58.559)
You have to end cold.
Sarah Fejfar (38:00.587)
Yes.
Sally Z (38:02.578)
Right? So I used to, we have a hot tub. So I used to go from the hot tub to the cold plunge right back into the hot tub. Like, oh God, okay, I'm done. I did it. I cold plunged. And my body wasn't seeing the same benefits as actually going from the hot to the cold and then just getting out and warming up naturally. It's like, oh.
Sarah Fejfar (38:13.868)
Yes.
Sarah Fejfar (38:23.448)
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Allowing your body to shiver. Mm hmm.
Sally Z (38:29.738)
You gotta stick with the pain. Yeah! Oh my gosh. You're doing it. Way to go.
Sarah Fejfar (38:35.831)
So I've been working with a new coach recently and it's really, really stretching me in some new and very hard and very painful and very good ways, kind of like a cold plunge. And it's been a really good reminder of how much joy there is in accomplishing and that momentum that comes from moving forward. And my question for you is, I'm guessing you're probably working with a coach or you're in a mastermind.
Sally Z (38:44.072)
Okay.
Sally Z (38:48.002)
Okay.
Sarah Fejfar (39:06.023)
yourself and I'm wondering what lesson have you learned recently that, to use your words, moved you?
Sally Z (39:06.153)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (39:14.918)
Hmm. Yeah. That's a great question. I just got back from a weekend away. So I try and retreat with this business group with my coach and this group that I'm in. We get together in person, which is part of the magic, right? Twice a year, sometimes four times a year, really depending.
Sarah Fejfar (39:33.763)
That's wonderful. Yes.
Sally Z (39:44.434)
Um, we have just been reading this book called 10x is easier than 2x. Have you read it?
Sarah Fejfar (39:51.435)
2X. No, but I keep hearing about it. It's on the list.
Sally Z (39:56.498)
Yeah. Well, it has some doozies in there. It has some doozies. And I think the shift in this concept called The Gap and the Gain, which is another book by the same author. But there's a chapter in the 10x book about this, it has really stuck with me. And essentially,
Sarah Fejfar (40:01.131)
Mmm.
Sally Z (40:25.231)
And you're just talking about the joy of accomplishing. Are you familiar with the gap in the gain concept?
Sarah Fejfar (40:32.863)
I don't think so. I have not read that one.
Sally Z (40:36.603)
Okay, I'll give you a really quick primer on it. It's fairly simple that we, especially as entrepreneurs and creative thinkers, like we have these big goals and we're always measuring ourselves against those goals. And so the goals are off on the horizon and we're getting closer, but the goals often, even when we get close, the goal changes. And so, you know,
Essentially, when we're doing that, when we're measuring about what we haven't yet accomplished, that's called being in the gap. I want to have 10,000 people follow me on Instagram, blah, blah. Right now, there's 2,000. So I'm growing, but I'm not there yet.
Sarah Fejfar (41:09.3)
Okay.
Sally Z (41:30.826)
in the game, which is where you turn around and you recognize how far have I come. So have the horizon, have that goal out there, but measure yourself in the game rather than measuring yourself in the gap. And super powerful. Honestly, as a mom of three, I was like, ooh, I am measuring my children in the gap.
Sarah Fejfar (41:42.524)
Mm.
Sarah Fejfar (41:46.88)
I love that.
Sally Z (42:00.298)
I'm measuring all kinds of things in my life in the gap right now, instead of in the gain. And wanting to, I had this realization, like I wanna teach my kids how to be in the gain in their own lives to like measure themselves and look back and recognize, oh my gosh, my son's a Nordic skier and be like, you know.
Sarah Fejfar (42:00.673)
Mmm.
Sarah Fejfar (42:14.642)
Mmm.
Sally Z (42:23.798)
that race, he didn't meet his goal and he's just super bummed that his time was not what he wanted. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can be frustrated with you on that, but make sure you recognize how much faster you are than you were last year. Like, you know? And so that, that has been powerful for me to think about and a little humbling, honestly, to recognize how often I am.
Sarah Fejfar (42:38.867)
Yes.
Sally Z (42:54.45)
measuring myself, the people around me in the gap. And it's not helpful. There's a lot of research in the book about how unhelpful that is, honestly.
Sarah Fejfar (43:06.319)
Oh, I'm feeling chills because this is a few times now I've heard this concept in the last couple weeks and it's really kind of trying to bash me over the head. Be like, no, you need to, you need to make this a practice of, of reminding yourself of how much, how far you've come. Yeah.
Sally Z (43:12.896)
Mm.
Sally Z (43:18.556)
Hahaha!
Sally Z (43:22.013)
Mmm.
Sally Z (43:27.474)
Yeah, which is so important because we're working really hard and it is, it's passion. This is not, this is not a nine to five gig where we're hanging it up at the end of the day and putting on a different hat. Like we are the business and there's pros and cons with that. And it just makes it more important than ever.
Sarah Fejfar (43:31.828)
Hell yes.
Sarah Fejfar (43:39.799)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (43:55.118)
to make sure that we're turning around and measuring how far we've come rather than how far we still have yet to go. Cause we'll never get there.
Sarah Fejfar (44:05.875)
I had this picture of my kiddo on a bike for the first time and she kept turning around and looking like she'd pedal and then she'd stop and she'd turn around and like big grin.
Sally Z (44:26.77)
Yeah. I love that.
Sarah Fejfar (44:27.003)
And it was really like it was it was constantly like, oh my God, did you see that? Like, look how like how far we are away from the house now. Yeah. And then like get back on like pedal stop. Like, look again backwards. I think. Oh, my gosh. I'm going to go get that video and take a frame.
Sally Z (44:34.817)
Yeah. Look how far I came!
Sarah Fejfar (44:53.163)
and print it and put it off in my office. That's the perfect, that is the perfect like the smile on her face, look at like the sparkle in her eyes, like the perfect example of what we're talking about here. Thank you.
Sally Z (44:54.263)
Yeah.
Sally Z (45:02.431)
Yeah.
Sally Z (45:07.794)
Oh, that is so beautiful. That's that's even just a helpful visual for me because the joy of a kid, like learning something new and being like, look, I'm doing it. Look how far I've come. I'm doing it rather than I'm doing it, but I'm not as fast as I want to be yet. And I haven't figured out those tricks. And oh, my gosh.
Sarah Fejfar (45:22.958)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (45:31.771)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the adult version versus like the four year old version. I want to have a little fun for maybe like a couple minutes that we've got left in talking about what the future holds for you and I know you've got your signature program.
Sally Z (45:39.934)
Yeah, totally.
Sarah Fejfar (46:00.007)
your signature talk studio and you've got momentum in there and you're changing people's lives and what's next? Do you have a live event component coming up? Do you have a book tour? Is there a conference for speakers to practice their signature talk in front of a live audience? What are you dreaming up?
Sally Z (46:03.106)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Z (46:21.138)
Yeah. Well, one of the other big realizations I had recently is that I, I'm an events and experiences person. So even in my coaching, we do events and experiences. When I'm coaching with my mastermind group, the speakers who want to bring in more leads and revenue with their speaking. Like those are events and experiences.
And so I'm going to be doing a lot more of that coming forward. So I don't know if you knew this, but I did a big event in December called the permission slip conference. So it's for, yeah, it's for female entrepreneurs in particular who are looking for that shot in the arm to give themselves permission for whatever is that next big thing for them. So we did that in person in Knoxville, Tennessee.
Sarah Fejfar (47:01.787)
I missed it. Tell me more
Sarah Fejfar (47:16.628)
Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (47:20.053)
Yay!
Sally Z (47:20.758)
Just because my partner on that event is a meeting planner, former meeting planner, and she lives in Knoxville and she's just killing it on the event logistics side, which has never been really my strong suit. With all due respect, Sarah, to you and your profession, it is, I know, I know, I'm grateful that people like you exist because it is not, it is not my favorite thing. I love what happens on
Sarah Fejfar (47:31.987)
Oh. Yeah, it's my favorite thing.
Sally Z (47:48.302)
stage and like really get obsessed over that part of the experience. So eventually, I've got that event. Eventually, there will be a live event for speakers in particular. It's not on the docket right now because I'm still honestly in recovery from the event in December. And we're just dreaming about what next year's event is going to be like. So I have my programs for speakers.
The studio, which you talked about, which helps people build their signature message. And then the lab, the movers lab, which is where we scale that message for leads and revenue. And then permission slip and then my own speaking. Of course, I'm out there doing a lot of speaking myself. So, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Fejfar (48:38.943)
That's exciting. And your book, tell us again the title and tell us when it comes out.
Sally Z (48:46.498)
Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's called Speaking Story, and it is all about leveraging the magic of storytelling to make your mark, pitch your ideas, and ignite meaningful change. And stories are a really powerful tool that regardless of your role, I want you to be leaning into more. It officially comes out February 13th.
It is in pre-order on Amazon, but somehow, because there was like a weird fluke with shipping and blah, I already hit number one bestseller in the public speaking category. So that was a really fun surprise, which is really exciting. Yeah, yeah. So you can find it on Amazon. It's called Speaking Story. And I would invite everybody if you are somebody who...
Sarah Fejfar (49:28.575)
Yay!
Sally Z (49:43.062)
you know, wants to lean into speaking as a tool for you in your business, especially if you're an events person. I work with a lot of events, people who are shifting from the sidelines out into the spotlight more. Uh, and you want to lean into stories are such a powerful way to start. I'm just encourage you to check out this book as a great starting place. And you can grab it at speakingstory.com.
Sarah Fejfar (50:11.383)
That's wonderful. And Sally, where can people find you if they want to connect with you?
Sally Z (50:20.414)
Yes, you can find me online on my website, sally-z.com. And I'm spending a lot of time on LinkedIn and Instagram. Those are kind of my two places. More and more on LinkedIn. I'm trying to love it. I'm getting in there more. I'm trying to love it. I know, I know.
Sarah Fejfar (50:29.418)
Okay.
Sarah Fejfar (50:37.235)
Okay.
Sarah Fejfar (50:44.012)
Maybe that's a sign.
Sarah Fejfar (50:48.351)
All right, we will link all of that.
Sally Z (50:49.654)
The more time I spend in there, the better it gets, for sure.
Sarah Fejfar (50:55.482)
Well, that's funny. I'm trying to like it. I will link all that up in the show notes. Sally, it's been a joy and a privilege to chat with you today. Thank you for coming on the show.
Sally Z (51:07.602)
Thank you for having me. I always love to commune with other event people and talk about the magic of what can happen when we get together, virtually or in person. There's magic, there's magic in the room. So thanks for being a champion of this.
Sarah Fejfar (51:12.524)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Fejfar (51:23.747)
Truth. My pleasure. All right, take care, bye.
Sally Z (51:30.751)
You too! Thanks, Sarah!
